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	<title>Comments on: The Morality of Mooching</title>
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	<link>http://www.inforipple.com/2011/08/the-morality-of-mooching/</link>
	<description>exploring the tension between liberty and law</description>
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		<title>By: Quincy</title>
		<link>http://www.inforipple.com/2011/08/the-morality-of-mooching/#comment-659</link>
		<dc:creator>Quincy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2011 15:16:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inforipple.com/?p=273#comment-659</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ Maggie

This post actually started out with that idea in mind. I wonder what would happen if every person who is eligible for government benefits were to take as much as they could--as a form of political protest. Would this drive government to raise taxes beyond what the general public could stomach? I don&#039;t think it would be moral, though, because the unfortunate taxpayers would suffer even more losses than usual.

@Lauren

It is important not to mistake the benefits of living in a market society for government benefits. Even if government were not involved in food production, road construction, etc., we would still have food, roads, and so on. The difference would be that the market would efficiently determine how much of these goods were produced and how they would be provided. The myth that without government subsidies we would still be living in the dark ages is nonsense. So the fact that we all benefit from living in society can never justify a person reaping unjust gains from government extortion. The benefits of living in society come from voluntary cooperation, while government benefits are the product of involuntary taxation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Maggie</p>
<p>This post actually started out with that idea in mind. I wonder what would happen if every person who is eligible for government benefits were to take as much as they could&#8211;as a form of political protest. Would this drive government to raise taxes beyond what the general public could stomach? I don&#8217;t think it would be moral, though, because the unfortunate taxpayers would suffer even more losses than usual.</p>
<p>@Lauren</p>
<p>It is important not to mistake the benefits of living in a market society for government benefits. Even if government were not involved in food production, road construction, etc., we would still have food, roads, and so on. The difference would be that the market would efficiently determine how much of these goods were produced and how they would be provided. The myth that without government subsidies we would still be living in the dark ages is nonsense. So the fact that we all benefit from living in society can never justify a person reaping unjust gains from government extortion. The benefits of living in society come from voluntary cooperation, while government benefits are the product of involuntary taxation.</p>
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		<title>By: Lauren</title>
		<link>http://www.inforipple.com/2011/08/the-morality-of-mooching/#comment-657</link>
		<dc:creator>Lauren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Sep 2011 18:16:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inforipple.com/?p=273#comment-657</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It does get complicated, and all kind of blends into each other. Public schools are government subsidized. So is food production. So are roads and any number of other things. Where do you draw the line between what you&#039;ll benefit from (either directly or indirectly) and what you won&#039;t? We all benefit from living in the society. (No man is an island). I think that what goes around comes around.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It does get complicated, and all kind of blends into each other. Public schools are government subsidized. So is food production. So are roads and any number of other things. Where do you draw the line between what you&#8217;ll benefit from (either directly or indirectly) and what you won&#8217;t? We all benefit from living in the society. (No man is an island). I think that what goes around comes around.</p>
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		<title>By: Maggie</title>
		<link>http://www.inforipple.com/2011/08/the-morality-of-mooching/#comment-628</link>
		<dc:creator>Maggie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Sep 2011 02:38:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inforipple.com/?p=273#comment-628</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What if you&#039;re doing it to purposefully bankrupt the socialist programs--thereby giving American citizens more incentive to have the government cut them? ;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What if you&#8217;re doing it to purposefully bankrupt the socialist programs&#8211;thereby giving American citizens more incentive to have the government cut them? <img src='http://www.inforipple.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Quincy</title>
		<link>http://www.inforipple.com/2011/08/the-morality-of-mooching/#comment-627</link>
		<dc:creator>Quincy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Sep 2011 15:16:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inforipple.com/?p=273#comment-627</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ Starr

I see your point about calculation, but even if you personally like a government program, that doesn&#039;t change the fact that by voting for it you have also voted for the government to use force to make others pay for the program as well. Even if you think the fire department is a great idea, you don&#039;t have the right threaten your neighbors with the use of force to make them fund it with you. That is the basic problem with all government programs.

@ John

That&#039;s a strong quote, but I don&#039;t think it answers the question. Would you say that taking a tax-return is immoral? What about driving on a road funded by tax dollars? Where do you draw the line and say taking these government benefits is ok while taking those is not. We live in a society that does not allow you to keep the fruits of your labor. Where is the wrong in recovering what is rightfully yours anyway—regardless of whether it is through food stamps or fire protection? The way I read the quote is that it is wrong to take more than what you have put in. If you take more than what was taken from you then you have done something immoral—even if you have contributed some small amount into the system through your own taxes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Starr</p>
<p>I see your point about calculation, but even if you personally like a government program, that doesn&#8217;t change the fact that by voting for it you have also voted for the government to use force to make others pay for the program as well. Even if you think the fire department is a great idea, you don&#8217;t have the right threaten your neighbors with the use of force to make them fund it with you. That is the basic problem with all government programs.</p>
<p>@ John</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a strong quote, but I don&#8217;t think it answers the question. Would you say that taking a tax-return is immoral? What about driving on a road funded by tax dollars? Where do you draw the line and say taking these government benefits is ok while taking those is not. We live in a society that does not allow you to keep the fruits of your labor. Where is the wrong in recovering what is rightfully yours anyway—regardless of whether it is through food stamps or fire protection? The way I read the quote is that it is wrong to take more than what you have put in. If you take more than what was taken from you then you have done something immoral—even if you have contributed some small amount into the system through your own taxes.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.inforipple.com/2011/08/the-morality-of-mooching/#comment-624</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2011 18:27:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inforipple.com/?p=273#comment-624</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6162

President Benson, BYU 1977

&quot;When you accept food stamps, you accept an unearned handout that other working people are paying for. You do not earn food stamps or welfare payments. Every individual who accepts an unearned government gratuity is just as morally culpable as the individual who takes a handout from taxpayers&#039; money to pay his heat, electricity, or rent. There is no difference in principle between them. You did not come to this University to become a welfare recipient. You came here to be a light to the world, a light to society--to save society and to help to save this nation, the Lord&#039;s base of operations in these latter days, to ameliorate man&#039;s social conditions. You are not here to be a parasite or freeloader. The price you pay for &quot;something for nothing&quot; may be more than you can afford. Do not rationalize your acceptance of government gratuities by saying, &quot;I am a contributing taxpayer too.&quot; By doing this you contribute to the problem which is leading this nation to financial insolvency.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6162" rel="nofollow">http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6162</a></p>
<p>President Benson, BYU 1977</p>
<p>&#8220;When you accept food stamps, you accept an unearned handout that other working people are paying for. You do not earn food stamps or welfare payments. Every individual who accepts an unearned government gratuity is just as morally culpable as the individual who takes a handout from taxpayers&#8217; money to pay his heat, electricity, or rent. There is no difference in principle between them. You did not come to this University to become a welfare recipient. You came here to be a light to the world, a light to society&#8211;to save society and to help to save this nation, the Lord&#8217;s base of operations in these latter days, to ameliorate man&#8217;s social conditions. You are not here to be a parasite or freeloader. The price you pay for &#8220;something for nothing&#8221; may be more than you can afford. Do not rationalize your acceptance of government gratuities by saying, &#8220;I am a contributing taxpayer too.&#8221; By doing this you contribute to the problem which is leading this nation to financial insolvency.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Starr</title>
		<link>http://www.inforipple.com/2011/08/the-morality-of-mooching/#comment-608</link>
		<dc:creator>Starr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Aug 2011 06:06:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inforipple.com/?p=273#comment-608</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To complicate your calculations, is it theft if you support one or two of the programs that your tax dollars support?  For example, the fire department. You may disagree with how it is run, but, for the sake of argument, you like having someone willing to risk their life to save your property in the event of a house fire. Would you haveto deduct the amount that it costs to run the current fire department, or the amount that it would cost if it were run the way you want it to be?  There is mo easy way to actually calculate how much was stolen from you because it is nearly impossible to calculate the benefits that you gained. 
My opinion is that the programs exist for the purpose of helping someone get back on their feet. They are horribly mismanaged and overutilIzed, but It is not immoral for a person to use a program temporarily to get back on their feet and be self reliant once more. It is immoral for someone to use the programs indefinitely with no effort to become self reliant. It is up to each individual to determine where on te spectrum of morality their case fits (but I am happy to help them judge if they can&#039;t figure it out for themselves).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To complicate your calculations, is it theft if you support one or two of the programs that your tax dollars support?  For example, the fire department. You may disagree with how it is run, but, for the sake of argument, you like having someone willing to risk their life to save your property in the event of a house fire. Would you haveto deduct the amount that it costs to run the current fire department, or the amount that it would cost if it were run the way you want it to be?  There is mo easy way to actually calculate how much was stolen from you because it is nearly impossible to calculate the benefits that you gained.<br />
My opinion is that the programs exist for the purpose of helping someone get back on their feet. They are horribly mismanaged and overutilIzed, but It is not immoral for a person to use a program temporarily to get back on their feet and be self reliant once more. It is immoral for someone to use the programs indefinitely with no effort to become self reliant. It is up to each individual to determine where on te spectrum of morality their case fits (but I am happy to help them judge if they can&#8217;t figure it out for themselves).</p>
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